10. Lance Briggs
Despite his three consecutive Pro Bowls, Briggs is more a product of playing next to Brian Urlacher and even more importantly, playing in the cover-2 defense. There’s a reason the market wasn’t very big for him this off-season, and why he had to settle for basically the same deal from the Bears that he turned down two years ago. In five seasons, Briggs has only 5.5 sacks and six interceptions, both totals barely eclipsing Ricky Manning’s Jr.’s last two years with the team. Still, resigning him over Bernard Berrian was the right call, because this defense just isn’t the same without number 55.
9. Derrick Lee
While I’m writing this, Lee has just grounded into another double play. After hitting 46 homers in 2005, Lee has only 46 total since. He’s still batting right around .300, but it’s a quiet .300, and his clutch hitting has disappeared completely. Some people might say Lee’s underrated due to the great crop of first basemen in the National League, but ask yourself this; should Lee be a number three hitter on a team that has World Series aspirations? Probably not. Enjoy him why you can, because this might be one of his last decent years. At least he turned out a lot better than Heep Sop Choi.
8. Kirk Hinrich
Not only did his scoring average drop more than five points this season, but his defense took an even bigger hit. Back in October of 2006, the five-year 50 million dollar deal that Hinrich signed looked like a bargain. Now, the Bulls desperately want to get rid of him. Two things are pretty obvious with Hinrich: he’s lost confidence in his game, and he lacks the quickness to stay with other point guards. Plus, his jump shot is very inconsistent.
7. Kerry Wood
Other than that 20 strikeout game his rookie year, and the Game 5 masterpiece against the Braves in the 2003 NLDS, what has Wood ever done in
6. Jim Thome
Thome should have a spot waiting for him in the Hall of Fame whenever he does decide to call it quits. On paper, Thome’s numbers with the Sox these last three years look pretty good. Even at age 38, he’s on pace for another 30 plus homer, 100 RBI season. The impact however, Thome has made on the South Side has been minimal at best. He still strikes out way too much, and clogs up the bases when he does draw walks. Aaron Rowand would be of more use to the Sox right now than Thome.
5. Kosuke Fukudome
True, the hype surrounding this guy (comparisons to Ichiro) coming from
4. Ben Gordon
There was a time when I really liked Gordon. Now, I realize he’s basically another version of Leandro Barbosa/Ricky Davis, a.k.a. guys who can score but can’t do much else. To the clueless Bulls fan, Gordon is good because he can make difficult shots and at times carry a team offensively. Realistically, Gordon is of no use to the Bulls because he can’t play defense, doesn’t know how to pass, and can be easily stopped by bigger defenders. Hopefully, John Paxson will make his first good move in a while and not give him a new contract.
3. Mark Buehrle
On a good team, Buehrle should be no better than the number three guy in the rotation. His performance during the Sox World Series run will never be forgotten, and that might be why Buehrle still gets a pass nowadays. In two of the last three seasons, he’s been terrible. The days that Buehrle does pitch well, teams still usually hit the ball hard off him.
2. Tyrus Thomas
I can’t understand why so many Bulls fans still think Tyrus will end up being a good player. Even after only two years, it’s pretty obvious he will be nothing more than someone who for each spectacular dunk or block, makes three bonehead mistakes. Playing with Derrick Rose should help a little, but this isn’t like Amare teaming with Nash. Thomas has a terrible work ethic, no basketball smarts, and really isn’t big enough to play power forward. Paxson shouldn’t have taken the risk of drafting him, and gone instead for either LaMarcus Aldridge or the guy I really wanted, Brandon Roy. Five years from now, trust me, we’ll still be saying the same things about Tyrus that we are now.
1. Olin Kreutz
It’s likely there’s no more overrated player in all of professional football. Kreutz gets credit because he plays with a mean streak, and is known around the league as one of the dirtiest players. Last time I checked though, a good center must be able to actually block a nose tackle. Don’t for one second let those six Pro Bowls fool you. He earned every single one on reputation, not performance. I’m seriously considering taping Bears games this year just so I can later spotlight what Kreutz does on every snap.
21 comments:
About Lee: This is a little unfair. You completely didn’t mention he was hurt for most of 2006 and as D-Wade is showing, it takes a year for a player to get back to normal, even though his OPS was still .913 in 2007. His numbers are down (as they should be) because he is 32 and on the natural downward slope that most players start to endure at his age. I feel we missed his last two big years of production (HR in your book) because of a fluke injury.
About Wood: Not sure a player can be “rated” if he has been hurt for most of his career. Plus, besides two really bad outings (one on opening day and the other on July 5 against St. Louis), Wood has been pretty darn lights out. You take away those two dates and Wood has only given up 9 ER in 44 inning for an ERA of 1.84. This to go along with 54 strikeouts in those 44 innings with only nine walks and one home run. Not bad for a “just okay” closer.
About Thome: “The impact however, Thome has made on the South Side has been minimal at best. He still strikes out way too much, and clogs up the bases when he does draw walks. Aaron Rowand would be of more use to the Sox right now than Thome.”
First of all, a strike out is just slightly worse than making a normal out. It is really just a lame stat people like to throw out there. Plus, he has kept his K’s below 150 the last five years (including this year).
Second, never, ever, ever sound like Dusty Baker. This whole “clogs up the bases” is simply bullshit. The fact is when a runner gets on base he increases that teams chances of scoring a run. It does not matter how fast he is. It is better than making an out. He is on base for the next guy, who may just as well hit a home run, making it a two run shot instead of run, doubling the run value of said home run. IT IS THE STUPIDEST SHIT IN THE WORLD TO ACTUALLY THINK THIS! MORE RUNNERS = MORE RUNS! Simple, easy, awesome.
Everything here is wrong. This lacks any research and any thought. As you mentioned Thome is on pace for 33 HRs this year, giving him 110 Hrs for the three seasons in ChiTown. He OPS’d 1.014, .973, .897 respectively over those three years. In comparison over the same three years, Rowand has hit 54 HRs in (projected for 15 this year). He has also OPS’d .746, .889 and .783 in the same three years, respectively. How in anyway would Rowand been more “use” to the Sox than Thome. Just because he has been on some bad teams and didn’t win a ring. NOT HIS FAULT!
Do I feel an "I'm sorry" coming?
Zach,
Wow, that hurts. i probably should have instead done one of your pointless posts that show no thought and no one wants to read, like top 10 chicago sports mustaches or top 10 events me and mrs. dubs want to see. And you're very wrong about all three of the guys you mentioned, although I won't waste time explaining why. send me your list any time you feel like it and we can debate. hope your having a good summer by the way.
BLOGWAR!!!111!!11!
I disagree with Ty-Rise being overrated because everyone knows he sucks but me.
-Rose-Tyrus 08'-
Yes, my posts are stupid and that's how I like them, but to have a post that is "meaningful" and not take the time to research it is WAY worse.
You say you won't take that time to prove me wrong, but you can't because facts and stats are on my side. Just because a sports writed names someone overrated means shit.
I dare you to come up with some evidence to prove me wrong on any of these points I made. I DARE YOU!
PS DLee age thing is based on the fact that he didn't use PEDs like the Bond's of the world.
This is an interesting post to me, so I'll just go down the list:
10. Briggs...I like the placement here. He really is a product of the system, but he shouldn't be higher than 10th because even when unblocked he still has to make the tackle against an NFL running back.
9. Lee. Another good one. He is one of the few on here that I think is actually overrated because Cubs fans talk about him as being one of the best. A very good player that is talked up way too much.
8. Hinrich. The only person who overrated him was Paxson, and most likely because he reminded him of himself so much. Pax should remember that he himself was a point guard that was really only a spot-up shooter. Hinrich is like Paxson without the shot.
7. Wood. A little harsh. Cubs fans have talked him up and he's not totally dominant, but he's done the job and is making something out of his career. As much as I hate the Cubs, you could argue that he is an overachiever. No one expected him to be 100% healthy all year and he's actually exceeded expectations.
6. Thome. The previous commenter was pretty right. Almost all power hitters strike out a lot. I actually think Thome runs the bases pretty well, all things considered. Better than Konerko at least. He is what he is...an aging power hitter who can still get you 30 HR, 100 RBI. He's been a lot better than Frank Thomas, who we dropped to get Thome. And Rowand could be on the most overrate list. If Brian Anderson was an everyday player he would be just as good as Rowand. He's a better fielder and he's done well getting few at-bats.
5. Fukudome. Being an all-star starter was a disgrace. The NL deserves to lose the home field advantage again.
4. Gordon. A agree with your comments about Paxson hopefully not signing him. Anybody who knows basketball should realize everything you said, but there are a lot of idiots out there. Oh, and there is no way he's 6'3 as listed.
3. Buehrle. Fair enough. No one ever described him as dominant, but he was consistent and an "inning-eater." He's become really inconsistent. But, during the season at least, the whole "number 1, number 2, etc,. starter" thing is kind of overrated. He's still a capable starter and I feel good about him come playoff time. The biggest knock on him is when he's bad, he's really really bad.
2. Thomas. I hope no one rates him as anything but a bust. I'm sick of hearing about guys with an "up side."
1. Kreutz. Right on. I would emphasize though that what he sucks at is driving NTs off the ball. He's always in the right place and doesn't let people around him, but he can't open a hole against bigger guys. Our offensive line is going to be bad. And he's taking up all the money. If you have an All-Pro center, shouldn't you be able to run up the middle?
Guys who should have been added:
Luol Deng. I would describe him as a "nice player." But he can't take over a game and can't make his own shot. A complimentary player who is getting paid like a star. Paxson covets role players and will never take the team to the next level without real stars. There is only 5 guys on the court and 1 ball. Paxson's stable of role players could never bear Boston, LA, etc.
Urlacher. He's still may be th best in the game when he's not blocked, but when an O-Lineman touches him he gets erased from the TV screen. His career is winding down and people fail to realize it.
Mark Anderson. Maybe not overrated anymore, but the stupid Bears coaching staff should have realized earlier that he's a 3rd down rusher. This whole "team speed" concept on defense is kind of passe and a product of the 90s. Today, 325 pound guys are often almost as fast as 285 pound guys. We don't have enough size and strength on either side of the line and will get abused there this year.
I will also use this to take a potshot at Angelo. He covets late-round picks like Paxson covets role players. Ya, you got a nice player in the 5th round, but your early round picks are all busts (except hopefully Olson).
well Zach, who would you put on the list instead of thome, lee, and wood? the three that I was considering were javier vazquez, robbie gould, and urlacher.
as for thome,i'll start with him, bc you are most critical of his selection. for starters, you should do some better research when you said thome has played on some bad teams. other than the sox last year, what bad teams has thome played on? certainly none in cleveland or philidelphia. i'm sure I'm in the minority here, but rowand would be a better fit on the sox because they already have guys like dye, quentin, crede (when he's healthy) and konerko (up until this year when he hasn't been healthy) to hit for power. the sox won in 05 by manufacturing runs and playing small ball. the 06 sox had way more talent on paper than in 05, but they couldn't even make the playoffs bc they went with the same philosophy that failed them in the jerry manuel era. you're right about the part when I said thome clogs up the bases. that isn't too relevant. what i should have said instead was that thome can't come close to hitting high fastballs, but that hasn't stopped him from repeatedly chasing them.
For Lee, I'll keep saying this; he's a weak number three hitter on a team that should be favored to make the World Series. Don't get me wrong, he's a good player, but he's still only the fourth best first basemen in the NL Central (Pujos, Berkman, and Fielder). I think that the fact the Cubs are scoring so many runs gets people thinking he's better than he is.
Finally, on to Wood. The reason I said he's overrated is because every year up till this year, people were expecting he would come back healthy and be the ace he once was. actually, he was never anywhere close to an ace, even during his best years from 2001-2003. he got a lot of pub bc he threw hard and sturck a lot of people out, but he usually couldn't last much past six innings bc of his high pitch count. (I won't even get into how poorly he pitched in game 7 of the 2003 NLCS, and how he should be held as responsible as anyone for that collapse.) as a closer this year, wood has been better than I certainly expected, but I have a hard time trusting him in pressure situations. here's a stat for you. out of wood's 24 saves, only 6 have come with the Cubs leading by one run heading into the ninth inning. that's only one more than his five blown saves. his stats look impressive, but I'd still take Bobby Jenks over him in a heartbeat.
this is something we just disagree on, so whatever no big deal.
I was referring to Thome when he was on the Sox...but fine.
Onto the 2005 to 2006 teams. The reason they were worse was their team ERA went from 3.61 in 2005 to 4.61 in 2006. Oh they also scored 741 runs in 2005 without Thome and scored 868 with him in 2006. SO maybe it was the pitching and not Thome.
I just thought it needed to be mentioned that Lee was hurt, because the 42 HR thing made it seem like he has taken a douce since, but he does still hit a ton of doubles and get on base. He still did have a very very good year, not great.
Fair enough on Wood, to each his own. He has been solid for us. and has prob overachieved this year. i have to do work now, wierd.
Bye
Just one more thing.
"the sox won in 05 by manufacturing runs and playing small ball."
By small ball you mean like get on base and stealing bases? I already showed the Sox scored more runs with Thome. But look at this:
Thome OBP Rowand OBP SB CS
2006 .416 .321 10 4
2007 .410 .376 6 3
2008 .380 .348 2 3
So what is he really adding? Bunting (maybe)? I don't ever remembering him doing that as a Sox. PS at those SB %'s he is actually hurting his team. He is just loved because he dove into a fence.
You just can't compair the two. There is no statistical reason to believe Rowand is better than Thome. The only thing he has over him is that he plays a premium position. Which would be the only argument I would see valuable for Rowand.
considering that most of the comments made on the posts are from contributors of this site, we sure do give each other plenty of shit.
danny, i thought your post was good. keep it up.
Dubs, by the way, a few posts ago I made a statement that small ball wins games, not home runs. And if I remember right, Mr. Curtis Whatever said that small ball doesn't win games. So because he is, like, the ass that everybody seems to be kissing these days, even though I agree with your last comment, I gotta say that small abll doesn't win games, just to not anger Mr. Curtis Whatever.
Bye.
It isn't shit talking, it is a healthy sports debate like they do on ESPN...except non of us will be fired for sexual herrasment (sp?)
Danny,
Give you credit for giving the "overrated" angle a shot but I have to disagree on some guys.
First,
Not to say that Briggs shouldn't be on the list but your reasoning of lack of sacks and INT's is stupid. LB's are positioned to make plays being mostly comprised of making tackles in the open field and shading into coverage on pass plays, something Briggs does very well in both cases. The market for NFL LB's in general was shitty, it wasn't the fault of Briggs that teams put corners at a premium.
Derrek Lee,
I can see both Zack's and Danny's points.
Jim Thome,
Left handed power hitters are a rare commodity and to have the kind of balance the Sox display in their lineup is something to be envied. And to say that Aaron Rowand (who is far more overrated than Thome) would be better for the team is purely laughable. What because a guy is a great teammate who occassionally runs into walls and hits occassionally better than his position makes him more valuable than Thome? Please...
Hinrich,
He had one bad season and if you read over your Ben Gordon argument then there in lies the answer to most of your points. Hinrich did lose his confidence, but he is still a tenacious defender who often burdened the task of playing two guys at once because of Gordon's defeciencies. Pair him with Rose and we can use him as a shooter off screens like he did at Kansas (just watch the NCAA Title game against Syracuse and you'll see what I mean) and they'll form a fantastic defensive backcourt. For now you gotta cut the guy some slack for having one bad year. He underachieves again this year, and I will wholeheartedly agree with most of your sentiments.
Wood,
I'm tired of hearing about him.
Fukudome,
only a rookie in a baseball crazy market. Cut the guy some slack.
Gordon, Buerhle, Thomas
Agree on most all points.
Kruetz,
I don't see the hatred at all. The guy gets league wide recognition for making good adjustments (which he does) and all-in-all he's been a good blocker. He has also been playing with the worst offensive unit of the decade full of lots of other shitty offensive lineman. Wanna know why he punched Fred Miller and broke his jaw? Because he probably knew Fred Miller fuckin sucked that's why.
As far as Deng who someone else mentioned, again he had one bad season and he's young as hell.
I saw that Vazquez and Gould were added as possible nominees. I would put Javy in place of Thome and Gould as honorable mention.
However, whenever I see national broadcasts of Sox games the announcers always point out that Javy has a .500 record, so I'm not sure how overrated he is (maybe he is by Sox fans). I always wonder how a guy with his stuff is .500, but of course he goes through phases where he tips off his pitches really bad.
Gould is getting the job done for now (short kickoffs aside), but I do see his career paralleling Paul Edinger's.
To the defender of Luol Deng...I'm not saying he sucks, just that he's overrated. If he is the best player on the Bulls we will not get past the first round of the playoffs (if we even get there). He is obviously no Jordan, but is also much closer to being a Horace Grant than a Scottie Pippen. We need two guys who are decidedly better than him to win anything.
Oh, and I want to do some more hatin'. Fukudome needs to stand in the batter's box like he's playing men's baseball instead of fastpitch girl's softball.
On a side note: I love the pictures of Thome and Buehrle. The pic of him Thome is a curtain call and the one of Buerhle is after they won the World Series...Make the reader think it is about how awesome they are, right? Wrong, its BASH TIME!
you guys (Scott and Zach) both make very good points. I'm sure not very many lists, if any, would be the same. and you guys are right, rowand is certainly not a better player than thome. I just feel like thome's too much of an all or nothing guy.
17 Comments??
Geez, that's what I get when my computer blows up and lose the ability to jump in on the debate.
But now that I'm here....
I won't.
The 'Most Overrated' genre always stirs up impassioned debate and that's why I loved the idea.
Remember when Urlacher was voted the most overrated player in the NFL?
Ridiculous, and not in that Devin Hester variety.
Somehow, some way, this always evolves into a Cubs-Sox debate.
The beautiful thing about statistics is that you can make them say anything you want as long as they are presented in the right context. But the fact of the matter is this list is simply one of opinion and therefore disagreements such as these are entertaining.
I'm not going to argue with either of you, but I commend you for going toe-to-toe and wasting so much of your employer's time.
Go.................Kane County Cougars?
Good points both Zach and Dan. I think letting Rowand go for Thome (though I love Jim) may have had a lot to do with the Sox swoon in 06. No way that team should not have been back in the playoffs in 06, much less squander a lead. And what was the main difference? I believe it to be Rowand,the ultimate grinder. Quick: most important positions in baseball defensively? SOlid up the middle means catcher (A.J, okay) middle infield but in particular center field. You guys are both too young to remember a Sox center fielder, Ken Berry, on some terrible teams. He might have maxed out at .270, maybe 15 homers. But ask Joel Horlen, Gary Peters, et al how many games he won for them with his defense? He used to freaking PRACTICE stealing home runs over the wall, and saved many games for the pitchers even though he could not hit a lick.
My point is this: Rowand became a leader on that team because of his effort. They still do not have a center fielder. Nick Swisher, dirty 30 keeps them loose, probaly gets them a lot of girls, but Rowand, you knew he would bust himself to get to the ball. Plus he probably got them girls, hit .270 with good OBP and steals. Every team needs one great maniac who will lead by throwing his health and safety aside to help the team win.
Other than that, great post Dan. And Zach, please try to come up with something better while not attacking people who have given quite a bit of thought to their writing. If you want to be clever and pertinent in your posts then refer to the current about the ten worst names in sports. That is interesting
@ El Zacko
"hit .270 with good OBP and steals."
Well, you are correct about his .270 AVG. Which was 2 points higher than league average in '05. In fact, his OBP was below league average. He had a .329 OBP that year. This is the opposite of good. He was a solid player. Not great.
He gave you a few stolen bases (16 in 2005). That is ok considering the AL leader (Chone Figgins) had 62.
The reason the Sox were not as good in 2006 is because thier pitching allowed 1 more run a game. THe offense was actually more productive by over 100 more runs without Rowand. So, logically they were better offensively the next year.
I don't want to hear that a decent CF would have made that team better. NO NO NO. That is wrong. I don't care how many fences he runs into.
This whole grinder things is kind of fucked. You give an average player way too much credit for being average because he "played hard" and most likely because he is white. If I have learned one thing about casual fans is that they love the whites and listen to hoaky sports writers talk about "grittiness" and "grinder-ness." It is really sad. This can be seen on the North Side as well with Cubs fans affection for Theriot.
There is no SOLID, LOGICAL, FACT BASED argument for Rowand. They are all excuses, like "but he plays hard." So what? He was getting on base below league average. But then again he has a goetee and has extreme grinder abilities.
These guys are mostly either not overrated by most Chicagoans, or they are actually good. Briggs, Thome, Lee, Wood actually contribute to the extenet that they are expected to. The rest aren't overrated by anyone that actually pays attention to sports. Kreutz does suck though. He really sucks.
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